TheBanyanTree: Taking a stand.

[John Neilson]

With the greatest respect to The Tree Dwellers.
Dee asked for a response to my statements. Since so many people have
responded both publicly and privately to what I wrote I am taking this
opportunity to explain my position to all interested parties. I am replying
publicly while acknowledging Dee's questions.

Hello Dee,
Thank you for your response. I will do my best to answer your questions and
respond to your comments.
I live in the beautiful state of Washington, out in the woods about 25 miles
north of Spokane. I own the ground under my feet. I am retired, healthy,
happy and have toys galore!
I do not consider that I "opened mouth and inserted foot."  Neither do I
feel humbled by what has happened.
No, my responses following what I said are not apologies. They are
statements aimed at recognizing,  to the best of my ability, the feelings of
those who responded, with the greatest respect I can muster.
Yes, I certainly acknowlege that every one has the right to free speech. A
wonderful freedom.
Yes, you are right. This is exactly how I feel about it.
You said, "Do Baptist ministers, retired or otherwise, take pleasure in
hurting well -meaning people who don't happen to toe the Baptist line?"
OK, we are going to get down and dirty here. You asked me for a response so
I am assuming that you will settle for nothing less than honesty from me,
right? What I am about to say is NOT, NOT, NOT my thinking now, but it was
for many years when I was younger.
I was brought up in the Baptist faith. My father was a lay preacher, a
General Baptist, in England,  so I was cradled in it.  I later became a
Strict Baptist. Strict Baptists believe that those who are saved  are saved
by grace. What that means is that if God has not selected a person for
salvation they are going to hell, no matter what. I then became a Southern
Baptist, and went to one of the six Southern Baptist seminaries in the
United States. I pastored a Southern Baptist church in Sacramento, and later
was offered and pastored, the  American Baptist church  in Mill Valley,
California.
What I was taught in my life from day one was that there are two kinds of
people. Those who have been saved by professing faith in Jesus Christ as
their Savior, and those who have not. Those who have not are condemmed to go
to hell, and there is no way around that fallen state. That is point Number
One! Point Number Two is that it is the absolute responsibility of every
Christian who professes faith in Jesus Christ to spread the faith by
witnessing to every unsaved person in every way possible! I grew up on this
teaching and have taken classes in evangelism from noted professors in a
leading Seminary with that express view in mind. I learned how to present
this material to non believers in a very effective manner, and have
personally led numerous people to faith in Christ. In my hayday I was very
good at it. I comnmitted to memory large portions of scripture as
instructed. I did as I was taught. I have picked up hitch hikers with the
express intention of "Witnessing" to them, and was often successful. I have
been door to door telling people they were sinners and needed to come to
Jesus Christ for salvation. I have been to bars and dragged husbands out
because they needed to "Come to know Christ", and returned them to their
families. Do you get the picture? This is not the ranting of some raving
lunatic. This is what Baptists teach in Seminary, and I did as expected.
There are courses taught on Personal Evangelism in seminaries! Have I made
myself clear?
You then wrote, "It sounds like a person who has devoted a significant
portion of his life to religious study, only to become disillusioned for
whatever reasons. I don't mean to be poking my nose in where it doesn't
belong, I'm honestly interested." Good. Thank you. I am ANYTHING but
disillusioned. Yes, I have devoted much of my life to theological
consideration, but disillusioned I am not. On the contrary I am more at
peace with my God than I have ever been. I have come to the conclusion that
the Baptist teaching which has been so much a part of my life is far too
limiting as it relates to God's grace. I have renounced it. I do know,
however, that whenever I see or hear the type of evangelism of which I have
spoken I react. That was the basis of my post. I do not know the heart of
those who espouse their religious beliefs on The Banyan Tree. I do not know
their motives. I only know what I have been taught and what I lived for
fifty years. I am like a hunting dog, I know game when I sniff it. I will
not foist onto you my beliefs in God. If you want to know what I believe I
will be glad to share it.................upon being asked.......and in
private!
To summarise. I affirm the right of anyone to express their opinion and
state what they believe. Can I also reserve the right to respond with my
truth? If a person will say that their church, pastor, whatever, clearly
states that they should share their faith with the express intention of
evangelising the non believer I can deal with that. If I suspect that they
are doing that while hiding their motives I react.
I reacted!
I have always said that I am eternally thankful for my religious upbringing.
It has given me a place from which to develop my own beliefs. I am not in
the least bit living in regret of my past. I embrace it. I do not apologise
for having "Led people to Christ." I honestly believe I did them no harm. In
fact, I can recount healed families and lives saved from misery. I only hope
that those who chose that path went on to explore their own truth.
I am not at the end of my journey in seeking an eternal relationship with my
God. I am on the path. My search for Truth, (capital T) continues. I love my
God and take full responsibility for my position in His eyes.
I avoided the temptation while writing this, but now I shall enjoy a
Budweiser................or two!
Most sincerely to you all,
John Neilson
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dee Churchill" <dee.cee at verizon.net>
To: "John Neilson" <ESQUIREDAD at worldnet.att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: TheBanyanTree: Taking a stand.


> Good morning, John...
>
> Since I don't know where you're located, I can only go by the fact that
it's
> still morning here. ;o} In any case, thanks for answering my post...and
> thank you for:
>
> >  I have now found the Delete button, it
> > is right next to Insert :-)
>
> Ah yes. Insert. That word which appears in the phrase, "Open mouth, insert
> foot." As one who has often and ruefully identified with that dictum, I
hope
> you remember and heed its gentle warning in future. A most humbling
> experience, I find. <smile>
>
> As for your post to the Tree...John, John, John. That was not an apology,
> was it. An acknowledgement of the right for all to speak their hearts
> freely, yes. But followed immediately by cheerful unrepentance, to wit:
>
> > Do I retract what I said? Heck no, it was too much fun.
>
> Too much fun? If, by that, you mean you enjoyed standing up and saying,
> "Hey! This is how I feel about it!" ... well, okay, I can see *that,* if
not
> the meaness of expression. But I'm puzzled. Do Baptist ministers, retired
or
> otherwise, take pleasure in hurting well-meaning people who don't happen
to
> toe that Baptist line? I'm not trying to be a smart-mouth here, John. I
> honestly don't understand where you're coming from.
>
> I do not, myself, belong to any organized religion (having a firm
conviction
> that organization inevitably spoils the spirit of the thing it organizes)
> although I consider myself spiritually inclined. I've studied extensively
> (though surely not nearly enough) about all kinds of religious/spiritual
> beliefs but I don't really know anything about Baptist leanings.
>
> But I'm not sure your post stems from "Baptist leanings." It sounds more
> like a person who has devoted a significant portion of his life to
religious
> study, only to become disillusioned, for whatever reasons. I don't mean to
> be poking my nose in where it doesn't belong. I'm honestly interested.
>
> As for your tongue-in-cheek:
>
> > I mean, He does answer prayer still,  doesn't He?
>
> ...I don't know, John. I understand He does...but it might not be the
answer
> you expected. <smile> I really do believe, however, one receives pretty
much
> what one puts out, in one form or another.
>
> Regards, Dee...not wishing to raise too much Hell with her own karma...
>
>
>
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